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joey791

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Code in reference to my other post in the dealer thread, I am very interested if this can be done, especially if it can be done on before mentioned systems, I have the money procured to buy what I need to be able to deal with the preexsisting systems on some of our jobs. Will the plugins have to be purchased from the manufacturer or do the plugins come standard with Lonmaker?



FC, please feel free to use this thread after sysints request.
 
#2 ·
With any specific quesions on LM, your going to have to redirect those questions to Sys, he is the LM guy, not I. I know enough to be dangerous, thats it.

But I can say that when I was testing out LM, I downloaded HW plugins from their site europe site, for free.
 
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Discussion starter · #5 ·
Sys can you elaborate? With Lonmaker all I need are the plugins and I can reconfigure, troubleshoot, and fix a controller, I know code's link is Europe but will these plug-ins have to be bought from the manufacturer or can they be bought through another source?

Thanks for the link code.
 
#6 ·
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Discussion starter · #7 ·
codewriter said:
joey791 said:
Sys can you elaborate? With Lonmaker all I need are the plugins and I can reconfigure, troubleshoot, and fix a controller, I know code's link is Europe but will these plug-ins have to be bought from the manufacturer or can they be bought through another source?

Thanks for the link code.
Click to expand...

http://www.echelon.com/products/networktools/plugin/plugindependent.htm
Click to expand...
Code, that means I would have to go independent of the manufacturer correct?
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Code, I found the link to the plug-ins, the Honeywell link takes you to the site you already posted, TAC has you email them for the plug-ins, thanks for the help.
 
#9 ·
No, you can get them directly from the manufacturer. I am just clearing up the fact that if one were so inclined they could produce their own plugins.

For example, I made a few "plugins" of my own for HW devices for AX before HW released theirs. Granted, the HW ones looked better, but mine worked just the same. No AX is not like LM, but contrary to popular belief, its not totally different either.
 
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Discussion starter · #10 ·
codewriter said:
No, you can get them directly from the manufacturer. I am just clearing up the fact that if one were so inclined they could produce their own plugins.

For example, I made a few "plugins" of my own for HW devices for AX before HW released theirs. Granted, the HW ones looked better, but mine worked just the same. No AX is not like LM, but contrary to popular belief, its not totally different either.
Click to expand...
The local dealers are our competitors, I called the factory about an enclosure I liked trying to find where I could purchase them(from a direct source), when they figured out who I was they never returned my call or anything.
 
#14 ·
joey791 said:
ill the plugins have to be purchased from the manufacturer or do the plugins come standard with Lonmaker?
Click to expand...
Joey:

Lonmaker is an LNS network Managment tool that happens to be made by Echelon. There are others NM tools made by Distech and Circon etc. as well. The NM tools do not supply the plug-ins, but they're the (typical) interface to launch and use them. As such, NM tools do not ship with plug-ins (unless then manf. decided to include their own, which is common).

Plug-ins are built (written) by the companies that build the controlers that use them. As such they're available from those manufacturers as a (maintained) product. Most companies offer the basic controller configuration plug-ins for free. Some are still in the dark ages and charge $ for them, but they're the disappearing minority. If you come across one, beat them. These plug-ins generally allow you to perfom minor modifications to pre-written applications for packaged equipment (etc.).

Some manufacturers also use plug-ins to perform actual programming (line by line typically) in fully programmable controllers. Circon and Distech do this. As these plug-ins are much "deeper" that basic configuration plug-ins, there's usually a charge for them. Like configuration plug-ins, they're available from the respective manufacturers.

For convenience, most manufacturers who are producing LonMark certified controllers either make their plug-ins available for doweload from the LonMark web site, or provide a link to their own site. The latter choice is to maintain revision control over the product that's out there in order to assure the correct version is applied.

Echelon (and specifically LonMaker) is in no way responsible for another companies plug-ins, but they do have their own as well.

Hope that helps
Nikko
 
#15 ·
Im lost...

HW does not have "local dealers", anyone can sign with them, and you can sell as many other brands as you wish as well.

Well, unless its TAC your talking about, but I dont know much about their distribution methods, but you can buy it from engenuity I see.

Hmmm... I cant see who else you may be talking about.
 
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Discussion starter · #16 ·
nikko said:
joey791 said:
ill the plugins have to be purchased from the manufacturer or do the plugins come standard with Lonmaker?
Click to expand...
Joey:

Lonmaker is an LNS network Managment tool that happens to be made by Echelon. There are others NM tools made by Distech and Circon etc. as well. The NM tools do not supply the plug-ins, but they're the (typical) interface to launch and use them. As such, NM tools do not ship with plug-ins (unless then manf. decided to include their own, which is common).

Plug-ins are built (written) by the companies that build the controlers that use them. As such they're available from those manufacturers as a (maintained) product. Most companies offer the basic controller configuration plug-ins for free. Some are still in the dark ages and charge $ for them, but they're the disappearing minority. If you come across one, beat them. These plug-ins generally allow you to perfom minor modifications to pre-written applications for packaged equipment (etc.).

Some manufacturers also use plug-ins to perform actual programming (line by line typically) in fully programmable controllers. Circon and Distech do this. As these plug-ins are much "deeper" that basic configuration plug-ins, there's usually a charge for them. Like configuration plug-ins, they're available from the respective manufacturers.

For convenience, most manufacturers who are producing LonMark certified controllers either make their plug-ins available for doweload from the LonMark web site, or provide a link to their own site. The latter choice is to maintain revision control over the product that's out there in order to assure the correct version is applied.

Echelon (and specifically LonMaker) is in no way responsible for another companies plug-ins, but they do have their own as well.

Hope that helps
Nikko
Click to expand...
Thanks for the explanation
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
codewriter said:
Im lost...

HW does not have "local dealers", anyone can sign with them, and you can sell as many other brands as you wish as well.
Click to expand...
That was not my understanding here, I know some of yall deal with Circon and Distech and we have one of our branches that do distribute Distech and I understand that they do things differently than other systems(positive).

Code I would have rather talked about this in email but I guess I will have to post it here, because I'm a factfinder and this is where it gets cloudy to me and my beef with the open system concept.

In my understanding Lonworks is a communication protocol, allowing communication between different manufacturers without haveing to use an external gateway or software. Yet with Lonworks are you able to change the controller configurations or just read/write to other Lon controllers and this is where my problem comes in and where my original question comes from.

If you still have to have the OEM software to program, configure, troubleshoot, etc., I dont see where that is truly open, yeah its good that you can just drop this controller on the network in place of a preexsisting controller of a different brand but if that controller is Lon compliant but you cant do everything you need without the original software you will still end up changing the system out in the end.

Nikko your replys or welcome also, my past experience has been with Johnson Controls, Trane, some Solidyne, some CSI, etc.
 
#18 ·
It is my understanding that all manufacturer's programmable controllers are the difficult part in dealing with an open network - multitude of reasons that osiyo explained quite well probably 6 months plus ago in a post. The beauty of lon really comes in when you deal with a front end and when dealing with ASC's. Even if you have PLC's in a system and there are exising SNVTs say OAT that you could re-use in LON. I don't do any integration with other manufacturer's on any major level, but it is pretty cool when you can just grab a manufacter's ASC Lon controller and add it to your network and have it talking to everyone else and showing up on the front end in 15 minutes. I've had Belimo, TAC, Distech, Circon, Functional Devices, Hubbel, Honeywell, Echelon and Loytec devices all talking on the same network and all displaying on the front end.
 
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#19 ·
LON has standard variable types. This is beneficial for sharing and displaying data. Even if you don't have the configuration tool or plugin for a device you can add it to your network. You can still bind data back and forth.

With LNS Lonworks many manufacturers have configuration plugins to go a step further and actually setup a controller. -- ASC-types such as rooftops, VAVs, heatpumps, etc...

Where many control manufacturers stray on plugins is with programmable controllers. These manufacturers choose to not put their programming language in a plugin. (Other than Circon and Distech) However, I can still take a H-well XL50 that's been programmed and plunk it down in my network and work with it. Otherwise, if I'm using a Circon or Distech controller I can program and fully setup these controllers in Lonmaker, Circon's Network Integrator or Distech's LonWatcher.(to name a few) Not only that but I can share the complete site database between them or run them all simultaneously on the same network and add/change/remove devices with each and the other programs would be updated with the latest configuration.

Where many OEM's (like Trane/Carrier) stray is that they don't provide plugins or simply provide an interface. Again, you can still add the device to your network. They basically trying to "bacnetisize" Lonworks by their restrictions. I would say if bacnet wasn't out their screwing up the process more of these manufacturers would be providing the tools to the customer.

You may want to include the Army Corps slide presentations on their decision for Lonworks over bacnet. It goes through many of these points.

[Edited by sysint on 07-13-2006 at 07:31 AM]
 
#20 ·
Looks like you have your answers?

If you have a HW dealer in your area, and your not being treated properly, let me know, I can let the right people know. But this would be the first that I have heard that a HW dealer could be an actual integrator as well... weird...
 
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codewriter
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