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Discussion starter · #61 ·
Correct. I am going to check the attic this weekend. If the duct is fiberboard how would you suggest adding additional insulation? I know diy advice is not allowed so maybe I will rephrase. Would it help if I laid some R19 batts around it? I cant get it air tight though based on its location
 
Lets take another look at this sizing thing...

Yes, TPTB (ACCA = Association of cooling contractors America), along with the federal govt (think EPA) set the design temps, based on AVERAGES in an area. Keep in mind that word averages...

In my area, Atlanta, design is 22 and 92... that is average low in the winter is 22*F and average high in the summer is 92*F.
Now last year, we had a heat wave at the end of the summer... we had about 6 weeks of 97-98*F days.

So lets look at a home with a system that is just barely sized large enough...
The definition of proper sizing (theoretically, as equipment only comes in specific sizes)...
Is being able to maintain 75*F inside, when outside is at design.
Yes, there are some variables for humidity issues.

So along these parameters: a properly sized unit for our example house
would run continuously to hold 75*F inside,
when the outside temp was 92*F.

So what happened during that heat wave last summer???

At 97-98*F... the system would run continuously and
maintain only 80-81*F inside ...
and with the higher %RH in my area...
the inside climate would be 'sticky' feeling.

So one sees... there is more to sizing than this idealistic goal of 'lets see how close to not being oversized we can get'... :)

So as one can see; one can oversize (or undersize) equipment to the point it causes problems... however trying to hit it right on the exact point...
Is a goal that causes other problems!

And we have not yet discussed the relationship of proper sized ductwork to the building and the equipment... a whole different set of issues!

So how does one determine proper size???
Find a contractor that understands the more difficult details of proper sizing...
Usually this is NOT going to be the least cost... however the highest cost usually is not a good value.
Ask your friends/family for their recommendations for someone they would trust to do the work for them.
Design Temperatures are established by ASHRAE.
_ _ _ American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers _ _ _
Design temperature are based on the 1% or 99% criteria.

The temperature IS NOT AN AVERAGE YEARLY HIGH.

It is the high temperature that
is only exceeded 1% of the annual number of hours.
0.01 * 8,760 = 88 hours / year.


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https://www.aiche.org/sites/default...unity/199496/aiche-community-site-event/231811/ashraeclimaticdataactivities.pdf

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Most of Eastern U.S. locations South of ~ 42'N latitude
would have a design temperature 91'F to 94'F … a.k.a. Dry Bulb Temp
ALONG With Wet Bulb temperature of 75'F to 79'F.

Wet Bulb = variable designating the amount of Outdoor or Indoor humidity.

___Dry Bulb ___ Northern states: 86'F to 90'F
 
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Design Temperatures are established by ASHRAE.
_ _ _ American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers _ _ _
Design temperature are based on the 1% or 99% criteria.

The temperature IS NOT AN AVERAGE YEARLY HIGH.

It is the high temperature that
is only exceeded 1% of the annual number of hours.
0.01 * 8,760 = 88 hours / year.


-----

https://www.aiche.org/sites/default...unity/199496/aiche-community-site-event/231811/ashraeclimaticdataactivities.pdf

----

Most of Eastern U.S. locations South of ~ 42'N latitude
would have a design temperature 91'F to 94'F … a.k.a. Dry Bulb Temp
ALONG With Wet Bulb temperature of 75'F to 79'F.

Wet Bulb = variable designating the amount of Outdoor or Indoor humidity.

___Dry Bulb ___ Northern states: 86'F to 90'F
Sounds like averaging to me...

Why is Atlanta design 92*F in the summer...
Yet we had 6 weeks of highs at 97-98*F???

End result is the same...
If one blindly follows the numbers...
One ends up with mediocre comfort when the design numbers are exceeded.

And it does not take much to do a little research and see that extreme temps happen... :)

Oh, one more thing...
To think ASHRAE is immune from playing the politics of being 'green'...
Well... really now... :)
 
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Discussion starter · #64 ·
I checked out the ducts in the attic and I did find one section in the supply that was separated. It is on the bottom of the trunk and in the worse spot to get to. I was able to seal a lot of it but will let the mastic dry and work on it more. The return duct looked ok and already has some insulation blown over it

Question. Are more cycles better than longer cycles? I looked at my kwh usage by hour. In the middle of the night when power use is consistent I often see .47 kwh used over several nights. My guess is with no ac running that is my usage. I then see in other hours 1.1 or .97 or 1.04 used. My guess is this is when the unit comes on. At 3 am I don’t think it runs for more than 12 minutes.

That shows I am using .6 kwh per hour for a 12 minute cycle. Of course during the day my cycles are longer, 15-20 minutes on 87-90 degree days. But the unit cycles much much more than older unit. I do think that is partially due to tstat keeping it tighter.

From an energy usage point is it better to have 25 minute cycles and less of them to avoid more usage on startup, hence my .6 usage on 10-12 minute cycle?
 
Hmmm...

As I remember... there are thermostats available...
That track specific time (and time of day) the system runs...

If this is something you want to pursue... might look for one.

Also... how about doing an experiment with your current stat: try 1,2,3 cycles/hr... each one for, say, 72-96 hours.

Remember to allow for outdoor temp, sunshine vs cloudy, and rain...

Be interesting what you find... :)
 
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Discussion starter · #66 ·
I have tried the two and three cycle option before and it cycled on and off quite a bit. I was using even more energy. When I have a tech come out here I guess I can ask them if they can see how many amps it’s drawing
 
Discussion starter · #67 ·
Not sure if I am a fan of the learning tstats like the pro 8000 which is what I have. Sometimes it is on when it doesn’t seem like it should be and sometimes it is off but yet it is warm in the house. I guess it is trying to learn our environment
 
I think you should wait to see your first full months electric bill before you get too worried about if its using more electric or not. You may find that despite the increased number of cycles, it is using less electric.

If you want longer cycles, have the blower slowed.
 
Discussion starter · #69 ·
I talked to the owner of a local hvac company about coming out but we wanted me to test something first. He said to block the overhead return to keep it from dumping air into the box. I explained to him how the overhead return can get to 84 degrees or more.

I did this and I did notice the temperature from the plenum was a couple of degrees cooler. The temp in the return box under the unit was close to room temperature for much of the day, do the test helped pinpoint the issue.

However, around 4:00 when it had been 90 degrees for a couple of hours the temp in the plenum increased over 1 degree and the return box deviated more from room temperature. My split was still around 20. If the only return air is coming directly from the house and going directly into the box what would cause the air in the box to 1.5 degrees more than room temperature? Also, as it gets hotter outside is it common for the plenum air to get a degree or two warmer? Or maybe it became warmer due to an unknown reason why the return box got warmer?

The air handler is in the garage
 
Discussion starter · #74 · (Edited)
True but I did check the ducts this weekend. I found one substantial leak that I fixed. Garage does get very hot. Is it possible to insulate the box more? The direct return is near the front door to the house and not near the thermostat. It is possible the return air there is a little warmer. I may need to test more.

I noticed tonight at 10 pm the return box temp is 77 but the house temp is 78.5 then the opposite in the afternoon where the box is slightly warmer than the house. So something is causing a variance
 
Discussion starter · #76 ·
It can’t be the return duct because I blocked it off at the unit. That is the test he wanted me to run. Right now there is no return air being delivered from the attic, just the direct return coming in straight to the unit from the house
 
It can’t be the return duct because I blocked it off at the unit. That is the test he wanted me to run. Right now there is no return air being delivered from the attic, just the direct return coming in straight to the unit from the house
Ah, okay.

Then he'll need to come an observe and check for other possibilities.
 
True but I did check the ducts this weekend. I found one substantial leak that I fixed.

Garage does get very hot.
___________ ___ __ ~ 102'F
Is it possible to insulate the box more?

The direct return is near the front door to the house and not near the thermostat.
It is possible the return air there is a little warmer.

I may need to test more.

I noticed tonight at 10 pm the return box temp is 77'F
but the house temp is 78.5'F than the opposite in the afternoon
where the box is slightly warmer than the house.

So something is causing a variance
ADDING INSULATION to a small, Marginally Insulated box
may reduce the Differential temperature from 1.5'F to 1.4'F

Post photo of Return Duct/ Box / AHU set-up in garage
 
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Sounds like averaging to me...

Why is Atlanta design 92*F in the summer...
Yet we had 6 weeks of highs at 97- 98'F ???

End result is the same...
If one blindly follows the numbers...
One ends up with mediocre comfort when the design numbers are exceeded.

And it does not take much to do a little research and see
that extreme temps happen... :)
Generally, A/C equipment OverSizing is not of any benefit
the vast majority of the time.


STATE BUILDING CODES will have to be
updated to permit use of higher Design Temperatures
as the Climate Changes result in temperatures that may more
frequently exceed the existing criteria.

Suggest to use: ASHRAE 0.4% + 1'F

Although the calculated sensible cooling load will increase somewhat,
I would not expect to see the equipment size selection
to be impacted frequently when following ACCA Manual S procedure.

The standard procedure of a few/several decades ago was 2.5%.
1% ASHRAE temperature data is generally used now.

Comfort should not be significantly impacted
when design temperuatre are exceeded
for a properly operitng A/C system.
The indoor temperatures could rise to > 75'F for a couple hours
in the mid / late PM during July & August in some years.
 

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Dan...

Maybe in your market... folks are happy with being hot and humid in their homes when the temps exceed design...

In my market... people want to be comfortable... and if someone has bad review for putting in equipment that does not keep them comfortable... then that person is gonna loose business.

Sorry guy...
Waving that flag of 'the rules'... will not fly in my market.
And as we have seen in this thread... the new units do not always use less energy than the older units.

Having said that...
If one were to oversize a unit to the point of causing humidity issues...
They would also get bad reviews...
However in most circumstances...
One can accomplish reserve capacity as well as humidity control...

If anyone wonders why LC's are not popular...
I wonder if this is the reason... :)
 
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